New Year, New You: Motivation and Goal-Setting

In this inspiring episode, we sit down with Dr. Joseph Fondriest to explore the art and science of staying motivated as we embrace the New Year. We unpack the challenges of maintaining momentum during the holiday season, the ebb and flow of motivation, and practical ways to manage anxiety about the future.

Dr. Fondriest offers expert insights into the balance between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, the role of dopamine in goal-setting, and how to create realistic, achievable objectives.

Whether you’re looking to kick off 2025 with purpose or seeking clarity amidst uncertainty, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you make the most of the year ahead.

Nicholette Leanza:

Welcome to Convos from the Couch by LifeStance Health, where leading mental health professionals help guide you on your journey to a healthier, more fulfilling life.

Hello everyone. Welcome to Convos from the Couch. I’m Nicky Leanza and I’m excited to have Dr. Joe Fondriest on this episode. And he’ll give us some tips for motivation and goals for the new year. So welcome back, Dr. Joe. Great to have you on.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

It’s great to be on as usual. It’s an honor and pleasure to be here. And I really mean that, Nicholette. And can I call you Nicky?

Nicholette Leanza:

Of course. Dr. Joe, one thousand percent.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Thank you. So at the time of this recording it’s like mid-November. And I think of course everyone’s thinking about the new year. For me personally I always think about before the new year to holiday season, because to me that’s like the yin and the yang in terms of motivation. So what I mean by that is my motivation around this time of year for everything is almost at its lowest. Because we’ve got so many things going on with the holiday season, which is delightful of course, but it’s a lot in a way. It’s a lot of stress. It’s a lot more work. Maybe we have to travel, maybe we have to see friends, family members we don’t normally see. Sometimes that’s a challenge in and of itself. There are certain family members that people get along with and everyone’s got that person in their family as well. And I think that is especially true around every four years, election years. And I think it’s fair to say that everyone’s in agreement these days that probably we’re coming up on a period of change.

And I think motivation for me it comes out of first relaxing into the holidays and maybe I slip a little bit on my weight goals. Maybe everyone’s got those diet, exercise, we want to be the best version of ourselves. The other half of that comes January 1st and it’s okay. I’m a little bit behind, but that’s all right. I’m going to get to the gym and I’m going to sign up again and I’m going to be that guy who signs up for the six-month membership and then goes for three months and then peters out. And you know what? That’s okay too because again, the yin and the yang and that cancels out maybe how I was in the holiday season. And I think that sort of thing is especially important every four years whenever we’re coming up on a period of change. Because we want to be at our best at times like this. And there are certain things that are question marks. And I think everyone would agree these are the times when it’s very important to be at our best. I took that all over. Is that-

Nicholette Leanza:

No, I love that because I think you’re talking about an elephant in the room. When it comes to motivation that’s one thing when we are going into a new year, but with this particular year of the different change happening specifically coming out of a presidential election year that a person might be looking at their motivation differently. On one end of the yin and the yang. Yeah, very motivated, “Yeah, this is going to be great.” And others on the other end might be really finding it more difficult to stay motivated. And so I like that you’re bringing it to this point for us to talk about that. I think we need to talk about this, so I appreciate you talking about it.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

I like every now and then get into these sort of self-help moods, we’ll say. And I’ve been reading a really old book called Meditations. And one of the things that this guy touched on is he was saying essentially it is easy to fall into that trap of if there’s something coming up and we’re not sure about it we can be paralyzed by anxiety. That’s certainly an option, but it’s like the fight, flight or freeze response. And if we’re not sure how it’s going to look is possible to get paralyzed by that. But it’s not the thing to do. Do not be fearful of the future, because it is coming anyways. Understand that when it comes we will meet it with the tools of reason that we have in the present. When the future gets here it’ll feel like the present as well. So we will find a way and the best thing that we can do is to be the best version of ourselves. The future is coming anyways no matter what.

And so what things we can do to prepare? If a person’s unsure about the future I can call that anxiety. I’m going to put this back into a lens of mental health. I like to say anxiety, I like to view it as an unanswered question. So that’s a way of looking at it. Now, if a person’s uneasy about the future in a negative way that can be paralyzing, but it can even feel like we’re powerless, but we never are. These things are coming anyways. And what’s an example? Being in your best place, whether that means mentally or physically. I’ve heard some people say, “Oh my gosh, what if I have to move?” I hope not. But some people have to move sometimes. And then that in and of itself is like a plan. It allows that unanswered question to become an answered question. If I’m unsure about the future, I can make a backup plan. That sort of idea. Or if a person’s eager about the future, there are ways to maximize, let’s say. Becoming the best version of ourselves and looking at ways to take advantage of what changes can be served in a positive aspect.

In the real world it’s usually a combination of both. I think that’s something that is lost on the modern world. I think whenever I talk to people everyone… So I have patience, right? And I have left and right leaning, patience. And it seems to me everyone’s either, “This will be the worst thing ever, or, “This will be the second coming of Jesus.” Probably the real truth is there’s probably both. And I think that it is important to remember that there is both. Again, I keep going back to the yin and the yang, but one of the beautiful parts of that analogy is it’s like a circle. This is an eastern concept. And half of it’s white and half of it’s black, but the part is inside the dark half is a spot of light and inside the light half is a spot of dark. And it’s not all black and white. And to remember that and almost prepare for it in the best way we can.

Nicholette Leanza:

My gosh, I love that. And I never thought of that in relation to the yin and yang. You’re right, there’s a spot of light and a spot of dark. Oh my gosh, that’s great, Dr. Joe. That’s really great.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

I think that’s what makes that such a powerful symbol that sort of transcends cultures, time and we’ll say religious influences even is it’s the spot of the light, the spot of the dark. It’s about 50/50 and also the waviness to it. It’s not like a hard line down the middle of like, “This is good, this is bad.” There’s a… I don’t know. A curve to it.

Nicholette Leanza:

A curve to it, definitely. So I like how you’re addressing just we know what really gives people anxious is when things are not certain. And so I think you’re giving some tips of how to navigate the future that feels like it’s very uncertain. And I love the quote you gave, because it does give some direction to that. When that future comes it’ll be here. It’ll be the present and when navigate forward from there. And I just like how you’re helping change this perspective that some people might be navigating the future as either, “This is going to be great,” or maybe not so good. So I appreciate this conversation for sure.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

I also think in the meanwhile, not to get too lost in the future. The future will come and whenever it gets here it’ll feel like the present because it is. Spend a lot of time thinking about the future. But I think it’s always important to remember that the only life we actually experience is the present. And in the meanwhile there’s a while always off. We have a nice little holiday season, depending on what you celebrate, different holidays that go through. It can be a very pleasant time, to be honest. Obviously we live in America. To some degree it’s all corporatized. This is the first year I’ve seen Christmas start before Halloween. That’s interesting to me. I like to believe that at some point in 2050 Christmas will start in January.

Nicholette Leanza:

For the following year already. Yeah, definitely.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

But to adds an aesthetic to the stores. In October it’s black and orange and earthy tones. I love it.

Nicholette Leanza:

As we look at motivation and looking at it from the perspective of oftentimes people have heard the terms like intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Tell us a little bit about what is intrinsic and what is extrinsic and which type actually leads to more sustainable change.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

That’s a hard one. So I’ve got my own thoughts on that. And I don’t really know if this is where you’re going with that.

Nicholette Leanza:

No, go with it.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

For me, intrinsic motivation is like a lot more basic. Ooh, I have to actually think about that. So the basic level, intrinsic motivations is stuff like animal level stuff needs, physical needs, food, water, these sort of things. And extrinsic might be something like, “I’m supposed to get an A on a test, because my teacher told me to.” There’s a little bit of interplay there where maybe if you’re a high schooler you get the A on the test, because in some theoretical sense it’ll help for your future. But by and large it feels like extrinsic is someone else’s goals and intrinsic is your goals.

Nicholette Leanza:

I love how you just put it just like that. I think that intrinsic is what’s internal, what’s inside you. And that ex extrinsic is that external. It’s that carrot on the stick of what’s going to keep you going that somebody else has put that carrot on that stick.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

I think what makes it tricky is the interplay is if it is the carrot on a stick, but it’s you putting the carrot on a stick. So if I go back to school… And school’s such a good example because artificial in a way. This is not something that whatever dogs have to deal with or coyotes or bears or whatever. So it’s okay. I know on some level this is something that I’m doing because future meal will be happy with it, but it sucks. So the interplay there is almost like pairing that base level like animal type thing, like the carrot. Maybe these days it’s not a carrot, maybe it’s like a Hershey’s bar. But then you say, “Okay, I’m going to put that over here. And I’m going to eat that if I get an A on a test.” Something like that.

And I don’t know if extrinsic and extrinsic is the words there, but it’s something like that pairing like an immediate level of reward, something like dopamine response with something that shouldn’t be something you’re chasing. And I think that might wrap into my stuff about working out, especially at the start of the year. I don’t know, for me personally there’s this period of time where I’m just enjoying the season. I’m relaxing into the end of the year. So that’s all more base level animal level stuff. Almost like hedonistic stuff. That sounds like too heavy of a word, but just food, wine, that sort of stuff, relaxing, sitting by the fire.

And then starting January it’s more of a higher pursuit type stuff. This is, “I want to be the best man I can be. I’m going to pursue my goals.” I always feel like some amount of almost pseudo guilt generated from just ignoring the diet goals for a while. And then that somehow is motivating to me. I’m like, “You know what? I’ve had my fun. Let’s get to it.” And that’s very powerful for me at least. And it’s a wave if you will. Up and down instead of trying to always be 100% sticking to the routine. That’s at least how I do it personally. I know a lot of people like the routine. And I think the routine’s very powerful if you can manage it. I think what people run into trouble there is if you don’t manage it almost feeling like defeated and feeling like a failure, but instead you could just reframe it as, “I don’t see the holiday season as a failure if I fall off my diet. I see it as preparing for the next year in a way.”

Nicholette Leanza:

Love you reframed that. Part of how I’m even thinking of intrinsic and extrinsic, I think it all leans back to what’s inside us. So if I’m someone who really gets pumped up if someone’s giving me a pep talk. So if I’m on a football team and that football coach is giving this great pump up spiel. And so I think on one end we might look like that’s extrinsic. That’s outside myself if someone’s pumping me up, but it has to connect with something inside for me to relate to. And so that’s why I think it’s so intrinsic, because whatever that coach is saying or if there’s certain influencers that really get people pepped it’s something about the individual within themselves that they’re relating to that person giving that pep talk or whatever. So I think it all still falls back to intrinsic and internal. What are your thoughts about that?

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

I think there’s definitely something there. I think the speeches and the motivational speeches… I’m thinking of my favorite ones myself. I have all these YouTube compilations of motivational speeches that are usually centered around weightlifting. And a lot of them are for whatever reason set to the Inception movie soundtrack. It’s just a very inspirational movie, I don’t know. [inaudible 00:13:01] a genius. What can you do? So the basic idea is I think that’s calling to something higher.

So intrinsic motivation might be like whatever, food, water, that sort of stuff. But what people want is a connection to a higher spirit, the higher intelligence, which is us. It can be spiritual and God stuff as well, but at the end of the day it’s us. And that’s the thing that’s connecting. And so it’s this understanding that there is an interaction between… I’ll use psych words here. I could say you got the beast and then or the id and you got ego and super ego. And somewhere between, the ideal is the center between the two. And so if you only follow your logical thought you can burn your-

Nicholette Leanza:

Id?

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Oh yeah, sorry. Started with the wrong one.

Nicholette Leanza:

Either way you start it, yeah.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

The thing in between is the beauty of it, which is like I have a way of thinking of myself and I’m thinking of this is I actually think of it like a beast. For me I’ll pick a doggy or something like, “Okay, that’s like this. I have to keep the doggy fed.” That’s like all the Christmas stuff. But then I also have to direct the dog and that’s like me. I’m like, “Okay, I have to get back into the gym. I can’t just always do whatever the beast wants to do. Then you end up just losing something. You don’t push away.”

It’s funny, animals are like that too. Actual animals. They don’t have that same prefrontal cortex that we have so they can’t do it on their own, but they like it. If you’re training dogs or training horses they can tell when they’re going faster and they can tell they’re a better being. And so with us it’s so different as humans, because we have both in our mind. And there’s like an intersection there. So these motivational speeches are, it’s someone who’s been down the path farther than us telling us about what the path is like and describing the path to us so we can tell when we’re on there.

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah, I’ll put. That’s good. This also makes me think of how do we get in our own way when we’re trying to achieve goals and our motivation and stuff like that? Any tips and how to set maybe goals that are more attainable?

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

It’s feeling like everything’s pointless. That’s a really big one. We were talking about change earlier today. We are probably entering into a period of change, especially in America. Big things will change and we can’t control all of it and that’s okay. It’s going to happen whether you’re okay or not with it, so you might as well be okay with it. And so I’ve heard one of the ways we get in our own way is people say, “I could do this and that, but what’s the point? Because these laws might change and then it doesn’t matter what my career is.” Maybe you’ve got a career goal. And then well, “What’s the point anyways?”

And that turns out to not be true by and large. It is almost always the best play to take care of yourself and prioritize your own life, prioritize your family. And the future’s coming anyways. Do you want to be four years along in a college degree or not? These four years will pass. That’s the idea. And that’s true no matter what. If you’re optimistic or pessimistic about the future taking care of yourself is super important. I think defeatism… Or okay, there’s a movie or book called Dune. And one of the phrases from that is, “Fear is the mind killer.” And I think that says it better than anything I’ve ever heard.

Nicholette Leanza:

Oh, that’s good. Yeah. Man, how poignant is that? We know lots of people who navigate severe anxiety. Some people who also navigate severe depression that is still fueled under that is that fear, that anxiety. To call it a mind killer is so poignant right there. And I think that’s how we also get in our own way when we let that fear come in. It’s okay to let it be there to sit with it, but how to navigate through it as well. I think often what I say about courage, it’s still doing the thing even if you are afraid to do. It’s still do it. That’s courage. Lots of people still might be afraid of the thing, but they still do it. I think that’s a great way to navigate that mind killer.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

That’s actually almost exactly what I say in my clinical practice about courage. That’s a really good one. But courage isn’t the absence of fear, it’s having fear and then doing it anyways. Or I saw a meme on this I think just today actually. It’s okay. They always say courage of a lion. Lions are not that courageous. They’re huge beasts and they have no natural predators. They can take on anything.

Nicholette Leanza:

True that.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

What’s courage is a hamster? This is a two pound meat potato who screams at their human if their lettuce is too wilty. That’s courage.

Nicholette Leanza:

Or you’ll see in those videos like a cat that’s protecting his property of its home, because there’s a bear that navigated into its backyard and it’s just like, “Grr.” and the bear’s, “Okay, I’m going to go along there.” Yeah, that’s courage right there. I hear you.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Impressive too. There’s something to that. Like the little yippie dogs. If they yip at a person, we’re bigger. We’re still-

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah, right.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Just don’t want to deal with that.

Nicholette Leanza:

No, good point. And even when it comes to setting those goals, looking at is fear of getting in our way. Navigating through that, but then even when it comes to goals and making them more attainable, do you see that some people might put these really two big, broad, lofty goals? And then if they don’t hit that big lofty goal then they beat themselves up and then feel like a failure? Is there something to breaking goals down and being able to meet them at given points? What are your thoughts?

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Absolutely. So definitely that. I think a lot of people know that. I think what makes it so hard is that the modern world changes so rapidly that these struggles that we go through in a modern world are hard. And they’re in some ways epic in our own way. So I’ll use, I guess myself briefly. For me one of my struggles was school. I just thought a school was hard. It’s a common one for a lot of people. Or career stuff. But these struggles are not like we go out and slay a dragon. That’s maybe what these old epic fantasy stories are about is something that sounds amazing. You go out and kill a dragon or something epic to it or you slay a monster. And those are the old stories, but they don’t apply.

And so these days our truly hardest struggles, they sound a lot more pedestrian. So I have to write a term paper that’s whatever, 10, 12 pages long and if you finish it just sounds boring. So there aren’t these, I don’t know, narrative. I don’t know, brad Pitt’s never starred in a movie where he had to finish a term paper, but he did do Troy. I mean even kind of mythologizing their own struggles. If you have that ability to make a story out of it then it sets the goal up here and then it’s almost easier to break it down. But I don’t know, it always feels like our struggles are so much more boring in a way. And I think part of that is just so many of these struggles are so new. There hasn’t been really good modern fiction to catch up with it, we’ll say.

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Breaking it down into smaller goals is everything. But that is much easier said than done.

Nicholette Leanza:

And that’s a fair point. Which brings me to a question. And this is definitely your background as a psychiatrist and your medical training. What roles do neurotransmitters like dopamine play in motivation and goal setting? Are there ways to naturally optimize those brain chemicals?

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Yes. The short answer to that question is it’s everything. Just like a different way of looking at the same problem. You could look at it from a biological perspective and in that way it loses some of its magic if you do that. So it takes away people’s struggles if you say, “Oh, actually the whole problem was deficiency of serotonin.” That’s actually one of my biggest complaints about the current modern social media thing is people view depression as a almost… They call it a serotonin imbalance. I just don’t know if that’s how I see it. Many people’s brains is not intrinsically broken, but intrinsically highly functional. And if someone’s having struggles with depression anxiety, it’s because there’s a conflict. And I think the old thinkers like Jung had a much better read on it than just saying it’s a serotonin deficiency.

So okay, are there ways to optimize it? Absolutely. See your psychiatrist or psychiatric provider and they’ll give you hints on that. But outside of that, having to do it in a natural way, I think that’s very important too. I think doing it in a natural way is closer to what you said earlier, the carrot in a stick. That could be seen as dopamine in some kind of way, like creating a goal and achieving the goal. Every time you achieve a little bit of a goal you do get a little bit of a dopamine hit. And I think there are people online who will say, “I don’t get any dopamine hit. And so therefore I must be this particular diagnosis that ends in disorder.” And I think what happens is people create dumb goals. I think there’s people out there who are like, “Okay, my new goal is I want to…”

Okay, here’s an example. There was a self-help book that came out that sold very well that it said, “Make your bed every day.” And there’s something to that, right? But whenever I’ve actually attempted giving that advice it has never worked. And I think there’s certain goals that just feel artificial in a way, because they are. And if you want to make a goal that actually gives you that reward it has to be something that actually moves you in a direction towards your goal. It can’t just be self-satisfying. And if people don’t get any of that natural dopamine hit then maybe the goals themselves are more pointless and maybe you should reevaluate your goals.

Nicholette Leanza:

Good point. Really good point there. Any other takeaways you’d like to share?

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

I don’t really know. I think something I always is very clear to me is it’s just very interesting whenever I have these… Every four years I get a bunch of different patients. And people have totally different takes on how the next four years will go totally wildly different. And I just can’t help the feeling that neither side is completely right and somewhere the middle is closer to what the truth is. And I’m looking forward to a day when the middle exists again, because it just no one’s in the middle. I view myself somewhere in the middle. And it’s impressive to me that these very hyperbolic interpretations of the future probably both are wrong.

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah, I love that you just said that. It feels very much like our country so divided right now. Everything’s so divisive. So looking forward to the day that maybe both sides maybe start to not just be sides but meet more in that middle, to create that middle again. I think that’s great.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Actually, that’s a good takeaway. Was it like you… And by you, I mean you Nicky, but also everyone like the listener. You can just live it. We don’t have to wait for politicians to be less polarized. You can just live a life that’s somewhere in the middle.

Nicholette Leanza:

Yeah, that’s it.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

On one side or the other you could just live. Think it’s not that bad or maybe it’s not that great, you just bring it in on both sides.

Nicholette Leanza:

Right. And maybe we’ll get that dopamine hit from bringing it in the middle and be like, “Oh, what a reinforcing thing.”

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

I think living in a reality that you think is close to truth is really a good way to live. It really helps. I think people really don’t like it if they’re forced to live like a thing that feels like a lie.

Nicholette Leanza:

I agree. Dr. Joe, thank you. I loved this conversation. Very much needed conversation during this time, so appreciate that I had this conversation with you. I think we both brought up a lot of good points with this. So thank you again.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

My pleasure as usual.

Nicholette Leanza:

And I hope you have a great happy New Year.

Dr. Joseph Fondriest:

Thank you, you too.

Nicholette Leanza:

I’d also like to thank the team behind the podcast, Jason Clayden and Juliana Whidden. And special thank you to Jason who edits our episodes. Thank you for listening to Convos on the Couch. Happy New Year everyone.